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Retired FBI agent, bestselling author, public speaker and body language expert Joe Navarro is a bit obsessed with how the brain works. Florida Trend contributing writer Sabrina L. Miller caught up with Navarro recently over a video chat from his home in Tampa. He shared his thoughts on hiring and leadership during COVID-19, invention and reinvention, and the surprising personal challenge of being a sought-after public speaker who is also an introvert.

This interview has been edited and condensed.

FT: You were saying that “Zoom culture” has impacted hiring and leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic?

JN: The early comments from a lot of CEOs and HR people was that they were trying to hire somebody, but for the first time they can only see this much of their body (head to torso) and we miss all that other information that helps with getting a read on somebody. We didn’t realize how important that was. People are unsettled right now when it comes to hiring because they can’t really see the hands anymore. As humans we’ve evolved to use our hands to convey things. For leadership, we’ve always said a leader uses broad gestures but they’re smooth. One of my favorite people of all time is Colin Powell. He commanded a room with his gestures–smooth, large. But what happens in a virtual environment is that those smooth and large gestures disappear.

I speak as a self-taught anthropologist – we only have one gesture to convey confidence, which is the ‘steeple of confidence,’ where the hands sort of form a church steeple There’s a statue of (late Texas congresswoman) Barbara Jordan in Austin – I love this statue and she is steepling and you see that and it’s thrilling because she was obviously always thinking, always analyzing but you see this supreme confidence and we only manifest that through the steeple. We know that because when we study children who are born blind, they perform this behavior and they’ve never seen it. It’s part of our paleo-circuits (brain pathways that link to emotional centers). It’s in our DNA.

FT: So how can we all–from executives, to hiring managers, to candidates, to employees making presentations, connect and communicate more effectively within these constraints?

JN: We’re looking for affirming gestures, we’re looking for congruence. What we have neglected for so long is that we put emphasis on the face when, in fact, the whole body communicates. I’ve had executives tell me now ‘I can’t read (people), Joe. What do I look for?’ We can look for the arching eyebrows. Even the smile, a genuine smile engages the corners of the eyes, the

head tilt is engaging, it’s powerful. What we forget is that we are always subconsciously decoding others, and now we have very much less to go on and that becomes difficult for some.

A lot of people think the best thing they can do in this medium is have a neutral face. It doesn’t take into account how the brain works. The brain is very binary; there’s no nuance. You’re either content or not content. You’re either happy or unhappy…

FT: Wait–really? There’s no nuance in the brain?

JN: No. We did not evolve to have nuance with the subconscious because it’s too slow. When we were all in Africa we were always surrounded by predators, particularly large felines. We didn’t have the time to ponder whether it was ill-tempered or not. It was either a threat or it wasn’t a threat. We either display we’re hungry or we’re not hungry. Nuance is something you can do once you have time. But on initial presentation as we scan–it’s called valence–it’s either positive or negative. There is no middle ground. We used to think that a neutral face was ok. Now we have ample research that says it works against us. The best thing we can do is nod, smile, agree, make some sort of gesture. The face that remains still, that is unmoving, unyielding in any kind of emotion registers as negative. There’s no such thing as neutral when it comes to the human brain. A neutral face and a scowl registers the same.

FT: How does the average and untrained person do this in a video medium?

JN: (Laughs) Well, for me it’s not hard. The biggest problem is that most people have very poor lighting. Obviously if there’s very poor lighting and you’re using the camera on your device, it’s even more difficult to pick up anything ... You can see when I wrinkle my nose, you can see the furrowing of the glabella (the smooth part of the forehead above and between the eyebrows) and you can see lip compressions–all of these are messages. But if you have very poor lighting, you can’t see any of it.

What happens is when you have 12 little screens and/or you’re doing a podcast, any movement–somebody reaches for coffee, somebody grabs their cat–the orientation reflex kicks in. You don’t know what significance to attach to anything.

FT: Let’s talk a bit more about you–you’ve said many times that Cary Grant didn’t really exist, but that he essentially invented Cary Grant by adopting these aristocratic qualities that made him so attractive – the accent, the clothes, etc. He made us believe what he projected publicly about himself. Similarly: Did you invent Joe Navarro?

JN: Wow...Nobody’s ever asked me that question. I welcome it. As a refugee you’re trying to fit in. I looked at, ok, what were the nonverbals of successful people? (I grew up) in Miami Beach, a block from the Deauville Hotel where on any given day you could see everybody–from Tony Bennett to Danny Thomas to Ann-Margaret. In those days there was no entourage. They strolled Collins Avenue like anybody else. I saw in the movies and in person how those people dressed and behaved. If you’re asking whether I adopted things from other people, like Cary Grant did, absolutely. But not just from celebrities. I adopted, for instance, staring people down

from my father. My father did not castigate vocally. If he looked at you it just pierced you. He didn’t have to say anything, he never raised his voice. I found that very useful in the FBI.

FT: I’m no expert but you’re looking around, you’re pausing, you’re not always making eye contact right now – I’m guessing talking about yourself makes you a bit uncomfortable?

JN: (Laughs) You’re good! A friend asked what I was doing today and I said (a reporter) was going to contact me to ask some questions about me. My friend said (sarcastically), ‘Oh, I know how much you love that.’ (Laughs again) I get much more enthused talking about observations and body language than I do about myself. People don’t realize this: I’m highly introverted. They see me on Wolf Blitzer, or they see me on that WIRED video which has 42 million views and have a completely different idea about me. But I’m highly introverted. I don’t mind being with, say, two or three people but anything beyond that is…a lot.”

Sabrina L. Miller is a Chicago-based freelance writer.

Tags: Feature, Extra